Landed off runway surface.



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Posted Tuesday, January 25, 2011 7:40:12 AM
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SquadronLeader (1/24/2011)
"(Oh, and how to tell FSFS a Cub doesn't have flaps? Setting everything to 0 doesn't seem to work)"

What happens if you let FSFS autodetect the settings of the aircraft? (Make sure no FSU file is in the aircraft folder for that plane).


Now the instructor is pestering me the entire flight about raising gear... (and complaining about flaps AND spoilers in the log)


About the other problem, I'm throughly puzzled now:
- Indeed it seems that FSFS is not getting the runway. I tried to deliberately shoot a good number of degrees to the side during descent and did a last minute correction to the runway below 100ft (fun in a Cub at 50kn ), same landing score of 25ish.

- However, passing 500 AGL I don't hear anything, not a thing about a runway, either positive "runway 13" or negative "don't know which runway". Runway 13 is set in the FSFS window. Every time I'm hearing (correct) glideslope OBS heading 125, no localizer (so visual approach) and waypoint reached. That's it. And for a short time I can glimpse a message "Landed at: []" in red text on green in FSX every time I land.

- In terms of alignment, how much margin of error in terms is there in terms of heading? Cause it seems that for rwy 13 @ KETB the OBS setting is 125 but the actual heading I need for visual alignment (GPS track) is close to 130.

- The most curious thing is that my flight report above says "* Heading aligned with runway." among the positive stuff and "Poor alignment with runway on visual approach - line up and stay there. [0%]" which I suspect is a follow-up error to the "without proper approach" thing. How's the first thing possible without the second?

Should I send you a flight saved right before the landing phase?

I'd love to go back to circuit training (where I left in 2008 (?)) but can't without a sufficient landing score beforehand...
Post #8519
Posted Wednesday, January 26, 2011 3:15:22 AM


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AndiD (1/25/2011)
SquadronLeader (1/24/2011)
"(Oh, and how to tell FSFS a Cub doesn't have flaps? Setting everything to 0 doesn't seem to work)"

What happens if you let FSFS autodetect the settings of the aircraft? (Make sure no FSU file is in the aircraft folder for that plane).


Now the instructor is pestering me the entire flight about raising gear... (and complaining about flaps AND spoilers in the log)

What is the exact name of the folder which contains the aircraft's

aircraft.cfg

file?

Who made the simulated aircraft? 

Please email the aircraft.cfg file to

support@fsflyingschool.com

so we can examine it in detail.




About the other problem, I'm throughly puzzled now:
- Indeed it seems that FSFS is not getting the runway. I tried to deliberately shoot a good number of degrees to the side during descent and did a last minute correction to the runway below 100ft (fun in a Cub at 50kn ), same landing score of 25ish.

- However, passing 500 AGL I don't hear anything, not a thing about a runway, either positive "runway 13" or negative "don't know which runway". Runway 13 is set in the FSFS window. Every time I'm hearing (correct) glideslope OBS heading 125, no localizer (so visual approach) and waypoint reached. That's it. And for a short time I can glimpse a message "Landed at: []" in red text on green in FSX every time I land.

- In terms of alignment, how much margin of error in terms is there in terms of heading? Cause it seems that for rwy 13 @ KETB the OBS setting is 125 but the actual heading I need for visual alignment (GPS track) is close to 130.

First - can you tell me (or remind me ) what version of FSFS you are using? 

- The most curious thing is that my flight report above says "* Heading aligned with runway." among the positive stuff and "Poor alignment with runway on visual approach - line up and stay there. [0%]" which I suspect is a follow-up error to the "without proper approach" thing. How's the first thing possible without the second?

Heading aligned with runway means that you where pointing down the runway when you landed. "Poor align on approach" (etc) or "without a proper approach" means poor alignment before landing.

Should I send you a flight saved right before the landing phase?

Please email your HTML log book to

support@fsflyingschool.com

so we can examine it in detail.

Please include a note giving the runways landed at in the most recent problem landings in the log book.

I'd love to go back to circuit training (where I left in 2008 (?)) but can't without a sufficient landing score beforehand...

Try landing with no flight plan or with ILS. What results do you get?



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Post #8522
Posted Wednesday, January 26, 2011 7:25:44 AM
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Mail sent - i'm curious...
Post #8525
Posted Wednesday, January 26, 2011 8:25:44 AM


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Hi

Thanks for the files.

I see that NAV1 is set to "GSH"

Is this GOSHEN at 113.70? Can you check what your NAV1 radio frequency is set to?

Is it some other frequency? It could be some other NAVAID called GSH.

Also - the aircraft.cfg file contains settings for flap positions (???) and it is this information that we read when we have to figure out facts about an aircraft.

You should be able to create an FSU file (save your own custom user data) with no flaps and no gear and whatever you want - have you tried this per the instructions in the manual?


 

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Post #8526
Posted Wednesday, January 26, 2011 10:25:16 AM
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SquadronLeader (1/26/2011)
Hi

Thanks for the files.

I see that NAV1 is set to "GSH"

Is thisGOSHEN at 113.70? Can you check what your NAV1 radio frequency is set to?

Is it some other frequency? It could be some other NAVAID called GSH.


I swapped to the C172 in-flight to check the radio stack and I believe yes, it is 113.7. (Third value in the row of four values on the upper Bendix radio - not too familiar with all this radio stuff yet). No idea where these settings come from. (Radio stack stays dark when cheating and putting a radio stack as [Window10] into the cub panel so I had to switch aircraft.)

NAV1 OBS is getting overwritten by the correct runway heading in FSFS during approach (correct heading is displayed on Ctrl+Shift+D, checking this every time). I also remember this from 2008.


Also - the aircraft.cfg file contains settings for flap positions (???) and it is this information that we read when we have to figure out facts about an aircraft.

You should be able to create an FSU file (save your own custom user data) with no flaps and no gear and whatever you want - have you tried this per the instructions in the manual?



I simply copied the stock Cub FSR file after I got the correct name from "Save user data". No flap stuff doesn't seem to be recognized even if all is 0 (and I tried removing the 0 as well, still there). Should I try and see whether I get the flap message when landing the stock Cub?
Post #8527
Posted Friday, January 28, 2011 3:12:24 AM


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AndiD (1/26/2011)
SquadronLeader (1/26/2011)
Hi

Thanks for the files.

I see that NAV1 is set to "GSH"

Is thisGOSHEN at 113.70? Can you check what your NAV1 radio frequency is set to?

Is it some other frequency? It could be some other NAVAID called GSH.


I swapped to the C172 in-flight to check the radio stack and I believe yes, it is 113.7. (Third value in the row of four values on the upper Bendix radio - not too familiar with all this radio stuff yet). No idea where these settings come from. (Radio stack stays dark when cheating and putting a radio stack as [Window10] into the cub panel so I had to switch aircraft.)

This is something we are looking at - when an aircraft does not have a NAV1 radio, FSX is still providing NAV1 data to FSFS and this can lead to odd situations.

Can you try some landings in the c172 (or just some stock FSX plane which has a NAV1 radio) while making sure that the radio is not picking up a NAVAID (it is not picking up a signal). You can check this by telling the radio to let you hear the morse from the NAV1 radio and if there is no morse it is not tuned to any NAVAID.

It would be most helpful if you could try this both with and without a flight plan when you are landing and please make sure you are all lined up and in landing mode when you descend through 500 feet above ground level (which will NOT be the altitude on your altimeter).

NAV1 OBS is getting overwritten by the correct runway heading in FSFS during approach (correct heading is displayed on Ctrl+Shift+D, checking this every time). I also remember this from 2008.

Understood.


Also - the aircraft.cfg file contains settings for flap positions (???) and it is this information that we read when we have to figure out facts about an aircraft.

You should be able to create an FSU file (save your own custom user data) with no flaps and no gear and whatever you want - have you tried this per the instructions in the manual?



I simply copied the stock Cub FSR file after I got the correct name from "Save user data". No flap stuff doesn't seem to be recognized even if all is 0 (and I tried removing the 0 as well, still there). Should I try and see whether I get the flap message when landing the stock Cub?

Sure - the more data we have the better to examine the issue.

We may need to consider editing the aircraft.cfg file to get rid of those flaps. The problem is that the file that came with the aircraft is telling FSFS that the plane has flaps.

Let us look into what type of edit would be needed to do this - it should not be complex. You can make a back-up of the aircraft.cfg file to be safe.


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Post #8531
Posted Friday, January 28, 2011 12:02:13 PM
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Okay, here goes nothing:

Flying the FSX 172. NAV1 isn't picking up any morse signals (tried different "silent" frequencies, just to be sure). I also tried manually setting NAV1 OBS to 13 at about 1000 feet. (I'm always reusing a flight saved where I started earlier with the Cub, switched to the FSX 172 mid-flight and am already aligned with the runway.)

Landing with a FSFS flight plan: same effect as before (glideslope is there 40%ish, runway alignment 0%). Landing score goes from 25 to 27 but that's prolly the faster aircraft. On landing the instructor says "Touchdown KETB." but he did that before with the Cub, too. So he knows where he is, somehow...

Landing without FSFS flight plan: No glideslope and no runway. Same-ish landing score, interestingly.
Post #8535
Posted Monday, January 31, 2011 8:30:21 AM


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Thanks - can you post the log book data for those 2 landings into a reply to this please?

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Post #8541
Posted Monday, January 31, 2011 9:24:10 AM
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Here you go - GSH doesn't pick up a signal so I left the radios as they were.


Andi piloting Cessna Skyhawk 172SP ended Freitag, 28. Januar 2011 at 20:43
FSFlyingSchool 2011 (Jan 21 2011)
Using: FSX
Visibility: 62,14 Miles Wind: 0 Knots

Aircraft: Cessna ID: N760PL Airline: Flight:
Flight plan: NAV1: GSH
Failure(s): None at landing
Failure Event(s) (Zulu Time): None
Failure Bonus:0% Flight Duration:00 Hours 02 Mins 38 Secs

Landing Score:27,25

Landing was successful in the following areas:

* Gentle touchdown. [69 FPM]
* Good landing speed - not too fast. [75 KIAS]
* Wings were level.
* Good pitch control after touchdown.
* Good pitch at landing.
* Heading aligned with runway.
* Throttle(s) idle.
* Good controlled final descent to touchdown.
* Good steering after landing.


Landing included the following problems:

* No glideslope information was available on visual approach.
* No runway alignment information was available on visual approach.
* Landed without a proper approach OR off runway surface.
* No glideslope - could not compare flare to glideslope.
* Without flaps - use them for better glideslope and control at low speed.

Definite room for improvement...


Flight Score:0,00 (Flight did not include take off...)

Flight commended in the following areas:

* Smooth turns.
* Nice banking.
* Correct matching of flaps to speeds.
* Comfortable G forces.
* Smooth pitch control.
* Flown within aircraft's maximum speed limit.
* Gentle taxi turns.
* Appropriate position of flaps during taxi.
* Safe taxi speed.
* Smooth braking during taxi.
* Wings level near ground.
* Well coordinated turns.
* No stalls.
* No flying dangerously close to stall speed.
* Smooth comfortable descent rate.
* Pitch not too high.
* Pitch not too low.
* Approach speed not too fast.
* Low altitude speeds not too fast.
* Good clearance of obstacles.


Flight included the following problems:

* Flaps not down on time - plan your landing next time.

Definite room for improvement...


Andi piloting Cessna Skyhawk 172SP ended Freitag, 28. Januar 2011 at 20:51
FSFlyingSchool 2011 (Jan 21 2011)
Using: FSX
Visibility: 62,14 Miles Wind: 0 Knots

Aircraft: Cessna ID: N760PL Airline: Flight:
Flight plan: 2T5 TO KETB : NAV1: GSH
Failure(s): None at landing
Failure Event(s) (Zulu Time): None
Failure Bonus:0% Flight Duration:00 Hours 02 Mins 39 Secs

Landing Score:27,25

Landing was successful in the following areas:

* Gentle touchdown. [240 FPM]
* Good landing speed - not too fast. [75 KIAS]
* Wings were level.
* Distance from runway threshold (visual approach): [270 feet]
* Glideslope held until flare.
* Good pitch control after touchdown.
* Good pitch at landing.
* Heading aligned with runway.
* Throttle(s) idle.
* Good controlled final descent to touchdown.


Landing included the following problems:

* Poor glideslope on visual approach - you can do better. [40%]
* Poor alignment with runway on visual approach - line up and stay there. [0%]
* Landed without a proper approach OR off runway surface.
* Without flaps - use them for better glideslope and control at low speed.
* Poor steering after landing - stay on the centre line.

Definite room for improvement...


Flight Score:0,00 (Flight did not include take off...)

Flight commended in the following areas:

* Smooth turns.
* Nice banking.
* Correct matching of flaps to speeds.
* Comfortable G forces.
* Smooth pitch control.
* Flown within aircraft's maximum speed limit.
* Gentle taxi turns.
* Appropriate position of flaps during taxi.
* Safe taxi speed.
* Smooth braking during taxi.
* Wings level near ground.
* Well coordinated turns.
* No stalls.
* No flying dangerously close to stall speed.
* Smooth comfortable descent rate.
* Pitch not too high.
* Pitch not too low.
* Approach speed not too fast.
* Low altitude speeds not too fast.
* Good clearance of obstacles.


Flight included the following problems:

* Flaps not down on time - plan your landing next time.

Definite room for improvement...
Post #8545
Posted Wednesday, February 02, 2011 10:48:00 AM
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Hello,

I still have the "landed off runway surface" problem. Please see the log of a recent landing:

LightSpeed piloting RealAir Beech Duke N1873K Winglets Ventral ended Dienstag, 1. Februar 2011 at 10:03
FSFlyingSchool 2011 (Jan 21 2011)
Using: FSX
Visibility: 62,14 Miles Wind: 0 Knots

Aircraft: Beech ID: N1873K Airline: Flight:
Flight plan: EDDS TO EDDM : NAV1: IMNE
Failure(s): None at landing
Failure Event(s) (Zulu Time): None
Failure Bonus:0% Flight Duration:00 Hours 43 Mins 30 Secs

Landing Score:28,30

Landing was successful in the following areas:

* Good glideslope on ILS approach. [60%]
* Good alignment with runway on ILS approach. [100%]
* Gentle touchdown. [410 FPM]
* Good landing speed - not too fast. [71 KIAS]
* Wings were level.
* Glideslope held until flare.
* Good pitch control after touchdown.
* Good pitch at landing.
* With flaps - good job.
* Heading aligned with runway.
* Throttle(s) idle.
* Good controlled final descent to touchdown.


Landing included the following problems:

* Landed without a proper approach OR off runway surface.
* Poor steering after landing - stay on the centre line.

Definite room for improvement...

The landing was very close to the center line ...

Kind regards

Arndt
Post #8546
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