Do you envision that you will issue a patch to correct the problem?  ANother thought on this problem is that if you are overflying the runway to effect, say a procedure turn or go-around, the instructor has no way of knowing this and thinks that you're going to land. The ideal is to stay in cruise mode, and just switch to landing mode on short final, or a little before when you're really going in, but then you will probably be below 1000 ft in cruise mode and the instructor will be yelling at you to pull up.  I'm just thinking, that maybe if this 1000' facility could be disabled, the disadvantage would be outweighed by the more realistic control of the pilot? 

Stan

stanshear (11/5/2009)

Do you envision that you will issue a patch to correct the problem?  ANother thought on this problem is that if you are overflying the runway to effect, say a procedure turn or go-around, the instructor has no way of knowing this and thinks that you're going to land. The ideal is to stay in cruise mode, and just switch to landing mode on short final, or a little before when you're really going in, but then you will probably be below 1000 ft in cruise mode and the instructor will be yelling at you to pull up.  I'm just thinking, that maybe if this 1000' facility could be disabled, the disadvantage would be outweighed by the more realistic control of the pilot? 

Stan

Stan I've lifted this reply from the previous post on this matter. I think the key is not being allowed below 500ft agl unless landing is the answer     Any thoughts?

Biggles

Hi Fenric

Your second point, hilighted above, is being looked at by S/L.

A question though when in cruise mode & on your approach to the overhead - at what height ere you flying?

I have raised the following with S/L elswhere I paste it below for info & will keep you posted re answer.

Re Stans 2nd point. Agree re turning off auto landing detection but to qoute Stan

.  If I remain in cruise mode he'll then tell me that I can't descend whilst cruising and criticizes me for that.  So what's the best way of approaching a landing according to an NDB approach chart where the FAF is very near the runway and you have to fly outbound first, do a procedure turn and then come in to land via a standard circuit because the approach is 45 deg. to the runway?

If one remains in cruise mode & descends below 1000 (with auto landing off) you will get hammered for low flying!?

Question is at what height do you need to descend below to trigger point deduction/debrief comment for low flying?  If memory serves me right you are, in unrestricted airspace & flying FVR,  not allowed to descend <500ft unless landing. Therefore I would think that this should be the point at which fsfs hits you for low flying.ie <500ft in cruise mode. This may already be the case, I don't know. If Stan has got auto landing turned off & he remains in cruise mode when inbound for the overhead on his NDB approach then, provided he doesn't descend  <500ft he should not hear Smithy's criticism re If I remain in cruise mode he'll then tell me that I can't descend whilst cruising and criticizes me for that.

 Biggles

OK, here's the story.  I'm landing at Provincetown which has an NDB on-field.  The approach chart and approach worksheet are attached.

1. You overfly the runway, and turn left 67 to be outbound in line with the runway, and reduce altitude from 3000' to 1600' over a period of about 2 mins.  You should be in cruise mode at this stage to avoid Mr Smith saying something about descending, but he picks up the runway as a waypoint and starts to remind you that you need to land.  He doesn't know that you intend overshooting the runway to turn back.

2. You make the left procedure turn, returning back at 202 to intersect the inbound heading at 147, descending to 1600' and turning 147 to land.  At this point you need to go into descend mode and Mr Smith starts telling you that you have no glide slope.

3. When you intersect the 147 bearing you have about 2 mins to reach the NDB which is on-field.  During this time you have to descend to the MDA of 500' to capture the glide slope for landing.

4. Assuming you're flying at about 75kias, you should be about 500/300 nm (using the 1/300 rule of thumb) from touchdown, namely about 1.6nm from touchdown when you reach 500'.  However Mr Smith continues to admonish you about the glide slope and tells you that you're below the glide slope.

Does this procedure sound right?  The problem seems to be that you have no way of telling FSFS that you're firstly overflying the runway, and secondly, when you return to land, FSFS starts to sense that you're off the glideslope before the MDA.

I hope I'm making sense, but this seems to be what's happening.

Stan

stanshear (11/5/2009)

OK, here's the story.  I'm landing at Provincetown which has an NDB on-field.  The approach chart and approach worksheet are attached.

1. You overfly the runway, and turn left 67 to be outbound in line with the runway, and reduce altitude from 3000' to 1600' over a period of about 2 mins.  You should be in cruise mode at this stage to avoid Mr Smith saying something about descending, but he picks up the runway as a waypoint and starts to remind you that you need to land.  He doesn't know that you intend overshooting the runway to turn back.

Strange, I would not have thought this should happen if in cruise mode  Over to you S/L

2. You make the left procedure turn, returning back at 202 to intersect the inbound heading at 147, descending to 1600' and turning 147 to land.  At this point you need to go into descend mode and Mr Smith starts telling you that you have no glide slope.

I believe the question of Smithy bleating on about Glideslope/localiser too early has been raised & is being looked at  S/L?

3. When you intersect the 147 bearing you have about 2 mins to reach the NDB which is on-field.  During this time you have to descend to the MDA of 500' to capture the glide slope for landing.

4. Assuming you're flying at about 75kias, you should be about 500/300 nm (using the 1/300 rule of thumb) from touchdown, namely about 1.6nm from touchdown when you reach 500'.  However Mr Smith continues to admonish you about the glide slope and tells you that you're below the glide slope.

Thats one for the S/L

You can alter the glideslope angle in your non ILS r/w files & see if that shuts Smithy up

Does this procedure sound right?  The problem seems to be that you have no way of telling FSFS that you're firstly overflying the runway, and secondly, when you return to land, FSFS starts to sense that you're off the glideslope before the MDA.

I hope I'm making sense, but this seems to be what's happening.

Stan

Hi Fenric

I think the S/L needs to answer most of this but I can see exactly what you are getting at

Biggles